MXMFW Minisode: Supersessionism

In this “minisode” we discuss the term supersessionism. What does it mean? Where does it come from? How can Christians challenge this anti-Semitism that is deeply rooted within their religious tradition? Join us as we continue to explore all the complexities of “bridging the gap” between Christianity and Judaism.

 
Episode Transcript:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oVVxJ47R3PPQiO9LiRFAq3I7nkzKfald/view?usp=sharing

This Episode’s sources

God is Not One by Stephen Prothero

“Why the Jews: History of Antisemitism” by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

“Ideas & Trends: ‘Supersessionism’ Reconsidered; a leap toward closing the basic gap between Christians and Jews” by the New York Times

C.S. Lewis 

Maggie’s Pastor Dad

Theo’s favorite quote

Maggie’s Deconstruction

Theo’s DBT knowledge 

Transcript

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Theo (singing): In the beginning, God made three lesbians who liked to talk, and they loved each other, and they loved God, but they have a few questions, and they think you might have a few questions too about religion, gay stuff, and life. So, come join me, my ex, and my future wife

B: Hello, welcome to my ex and my future wife, I’m Bridget

M: I’m Maggie, and I’m the ex

T: And I’m Theo and I’m the future wife

B: This week we’re gonna be tackling a topic that I think is important terminology to know when we’re discussing religion, specifically the connections and relationship between Judaism and Christianity. So, I thought that we would devote a little bit of airtime to it. 

M: This podcast is a little bit about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, maybe

T: Just a little, sometimes 

B: So, this episode is going to be talking about supersessionism a word that you may or may not have heard, and that’s completely fair, it is not a word that honestly, I had heard until fairly recently in my life 

T: I didn’t know it until we started talking about this episode

B: But it’s pretty important to know

M: Do you wanna give us a quick def, Bridget

B: Yeah, I was gonna say I’m gonna hop right in and define that for us, and then we can get to chatting a little bit more about it. Supersessionism essentially is the, it’s a piece of Christian belief and Christian theology that’s also called Replacement Theology, and Maggie feel free to hop in here if I’m saying anything off base, but basically, it’s the idea that when Jesus came around and started doing all his Jesus stuff, the followers, okay well not when Jesus came around, a little bit after, but that basically the doctrine of Christianity is sort of superior and more updated than anything Jews are doing, and the covenant that God made with the Jews and the Jews being God’s chosen people was replaced by Christianity existing and so functionally the Christian beliefs and Christian covenants supersede—aka replace and erase those of Jewish belief. So functionally, Christian doctrine replaces Jewish doctrine as the most up-to-date and correct way to follow God’s laws.

M: And for you, Bible Babes out there, this discussion and the beginning of Supersessionism begins in the book of Acts with I think Peter’s dream.

B: There’s also a complex layer with supersessionism where people will look at the Torah and Jewish religious texts, and go “we’ll all of these actually have so many hints and allusions to the existence of Jesus, and Jesus was actually there the whole time”.

T: Interesting take

B: In my opinion maybe a little ahistorical, but that’s kind of a hot take from a lot of supersessionist Christians. Supersessionism in general is this way of invalidating Jewish belief and practice and saying that Christian belief and practice is the one true way to be interacting with God.

T: It’s what Christians love to do, which is take everything from Judaism and then be like, no we do it right though

B: There’s sort of a whole “God remade his covenant”, “Christians are the new Jews”, “By not accepting Jesus as the Messiah, Jews basically locked themselves out of having any true connections with God”, etc

T: Which is so crazy they then still want to celebrate Passover

B: Christians wanting to celebrate Passover and stuff is a supersessionist thing, and it’s saying this is actually our legacy and our own right to celebrate these things because we want to live authentically as Jesus did, and therefore co-opt your traditions and misunderstand them and misinterpret them because we feel like they belong to us. Maggie, am I doing this justice?

M: Yeah, so far so good, a fun terminology that my dad likes to use is called “waving the Jesus wand”

(laughter)

M: On Old Testament law

B: obsessed

T: That’s hilarious. It’s just some good old fashioned spicy anti-Semitism

B: So supersessionism sounds like pretty gross and bad and it’s something that a lot of Christians believe without knowing they believe it

T: And it also is gross and bad
 B: Oh for sure it is gross and bad, but if you lay it out how I’ve done and explain what it really is about, it sounds a lot worse than a lot of people who believe it doesn’t realize that’s exactly what they are believing because it can come across in much more subtle ways. Maggie could you give me any good examples of subtle perpetuations of supersessionism where people probably think they’re not doing anything wrong and don’t realize what they’re doing is anti-Semitic. I honestly think Christians celebrating Passover is a really good example of that.

M: That’s true. I will say before I get into examples, I wanted to take a note. I grew up definitely supersessionism

T: Supercessionist?

B: supercesionistic?

M: And I also learned about anti-Semitism and the blood libel version of anti-Semitism, which we talked about a little bit

B: You were like anti-Semitism is when people say Jews killed babies, not anti-Semitism is when people say Jews killed Jesus

M: Exactly, yeah. I learned that, and so some of my favorite examples of supersessionism anti-Semitism that I’ve heard is “ I feel so sad to Jewish people because they are so close to God but not quite there”

T: That’s how I feel about Christians

M: Another example is “Oh my friend found Judaism” and the response was “Oh you have to keep hoping and praying that they will eventually find Jesus too” like Judaism is the steppingstone to Jesus

T: That makes me want to throw up on them a lot

M: Those are my examples

T: I think that’s bad, yep.

B: I spent a lot of time yesterday explaining to one of my friends why Jesus was able to accept that Jesus was Jewish and still have a lot of disdain for Jews, and I was like one of the reasons is because we didn’t accept Jesus as the messiah and Christians are like “Woah, are you crazy”. I’m like, you know listen, I see where you’re coming from Christians, but I feel like maybe it would be best if we agreed to disagree on this one because neither of us are gonna be happy if we don’t respect our differences

T: I think I feel the way about Christians that Christians feel about Jews sometimes

B: You feel bad for them?

T: Yeah

(laughter)

M: Oh, I found another example of supersession anti-Semitism, can I share?

B: Oh, please

M: I was talking to some people about how I was like in the process of being like “wow maybe Christianity isn’t the only religion” anyways we love to deconstruct, and I was telling someone “well a lot of my Jewish friends taught me about God and religion and what it means to be a moral religious person” and the response was “Well like C.S. Lewis said, other religions besides Christianity got some things right, but a lot of things wrong and Christianity is the only one that got everything right”

B: Frist of all, why is it always C.S Lewis, why is Mr. CS Lewis always popping up? I hear about him every day from you, but it’s never you are being like “Oh CS Lewis moment” it’s always you telling me what some other Christian like quoted or referenced CS Lewis to you like man seriously this Narnia was all over everything

T: This Narnia guy liked to get slapped at parties and now it’s all that Christians talk about

B: Well CS Lewis said “Smack my Ass like a drum”

T: He did

B: Second of all, can you imagine thinking that you’ve gotten everything right?

M: But they did, the Christians did 

T: Like Jews don’t think that now and we’ve been around for way longer.

B: What is it, a wise man knows how much he does not now, or whatever

T: Who knows, not me. There’s a reason that we’ve got fucking midrash and shit. I don’t know, we know that we don’t know

B: We gotta do commentary on commentary on commentary and contradict ourselves every day because there are a lot true opinions that are disagreeing

T: It’s dialects

B: It’s literally dialects baby

T: And when it’s been around this long, you gotta think that maybe there’s gotta be some updates, but I guess Christians are like “nope, made it, did it, we’re right and everyone else is wrong” which is crazy cause their stuff doesn’t even make sense, so.

M: I think also unpacking supersessionism is also very closely related to unpacking Biblical inherency, which is like the idea that the Bible is perfect and has no flaws, specifically historically. Because, when I first started learning that the Jews didn’t actually kill Jesus, I was like “but it says it in the Bible”

B: But does it

M: Kind of, basically, and then also just being like “Oh the Bible is not historically accurate sometimes” and that sentence took me like eh 5 months to get there, so

T: When was that in your life when you were doing that

M: Very recently, it was, I was doing a project for one of my classes about anti-Semitism and we watched this video on anti-Semitism throughout history and the first half of the video was blood libel, evil liberal elites, Jewish people eat babies, I was like “ I don’t believe that, I never believed that, look at me go” I’m not anti-Semitic 

(Laughter)

M: And then I learned that supersessionism and the idea that Jewish don’t accept God because they don’t see Jesus as the Messiah was also anti-Semitic, and I was like “what?? That??”

T: What a fun thing to learn

M: But me believe that?

T: Uh-oh, almost if you only hear what is anti-Semitic from Christians it’s almost like it’s not gonna be accurate

M: It’s actually not accurate

T: They’re actually still gonna be anti-Semitic 

M: And I said, and they were like the Jews didn’t kill Jesus, that’s historically inaccurate, and I was like “Bible Lie???”

(laughter)

T: Top ten Bible lies

M: So, yeah. I don’t know, learning that I was raised on anti-Semitism was purely on accident, fellow Christians if you’re unpacking your anti-Semitism hit me up.

T: This podcast is gonna be a great place to do that

M: I also have a question, considering anti-Semitism and supercessionism

B: Considering it

M: I’m considering it. How do Christians respond and how do Christians practice their faith in relation to Judaism in a way that doesn’t perpetuate…

B: That doesn’t perpetuate supersessionism? Okay wait, this is actually a really good question, I was reading a 1988 New York Times Article just this morning because I was trying to do a little bit of prep for thinking about this episode. What I was reading in this, I wonder if I still have it open…this was a statement from the Episcopal church that said “From the early days of the church many Christians interpreters saw the church replacing Israel as God’s people, the covenant of God with the people of Israel was mistakenly seen only as a preparation for the coming of Jesus, as a consequence the covenant of Israel was considered to be abrogated” which means erased functionally and they were saying to try and deconstruct this incidental anti-Jewishness and supersessionism, you just have to come from a place of really accepting that your religious belief isn’t the absolute correct religious belief, and it’s really hard because a lot of religious belief is very much predicated on believing that this is the correct way to live 

T: I mean Judaism is too

B: For sure! But I think at the end of the day true acceptance has to be able to come from saying, this is beautiful and perfect to me, and it is completely right for me and I am invested in my belief, but it applies to me, and it’s kind of the way that a lot of Jewish law is, like Jewish law only applies to the people within the covenant with God that Jews made, so no Jew would ever expect any goy to like keep Kosher because it’s just not their thing.

T: That’s why they get the goyim to turn the lights on on the sabbath

B: Yeah exactly, that’s what a Shabbos goy is all about 

(laughter)

B: But, it’s complex when I say it from that perspective just because Judaism does not have the religious element of needing to proselytize and wanting to convert people, so it’s almost more straightforward for me as a Jew to sit here and be like “just mind your own business about it” because it is kind of, you know, like I said, it’s absolutely true within the Jewish faith that we think that what we’re doing is the most right, but we’re not trying to convince anyone else of that

T: It’s right for us

B: I think that it kind of, Maggie, it would come from a similar place that we’ve discussed in the past that there has to be a consent element to proselytizing that there often isn’t. There is the issue of, you really can’t proselytize to people who don’t want to be proselytized to, or else you’ve crossed a line into disrespecting them. 

T: I think the answer for Christians to make it easier to accept that your faith is not the only one is actually just stop proselytizing

B: Yeah, except, it’s hard for me to sit here and be like “Christianity would have to change and alter all of its innate structures since it has existed” because Christianity is by definition a colonizer religion, and it exists to spread itself and to take over other people and that’s, you know how people are like “you can’t reform the police because they’re doing exactly what they were supposed to do”, that is, and I mean that not in a mean way, but Christianity, supercessionist belief in Christianity and Christianity being based in some really complex anti-Semitism is very much the function and structure of the way it was created

T: So, the answer once again is to abolish Christianity

B: But the answer on an individual level is to find a place of acceptance that something can be right to you and not right to everyone, and that you need to just fully and completely respect people’s differences, and that respecting other people’s differences and beliefs means not taking pity on them about it, not thinking deep down that they need to be changed, because that’s not what acceptance is 

T: Very true, good acceptance talk, I’m a fan. It’s a big DBT moment.

B: Oh my god.

T: But I also think that Christians probably should stop proselytizing.

B: Maggie, thoughts?

T: Like I think you probably should

B: I just spoke for two straight minutes, so give me your thoughts

T: If somebody asks about Christianity and is like “I wanna learn” you can obviously tell them, but I think you should just stop doing it without people asking first

B: I also think that from what I’ve observed from structures of proselytizing it can be a little insidious, and I think being very forthright about “I come from a religion that encourages conversion” and blah blah blah, that would be ideal. Just be honest.

T: That’s literally something I’ve never heard from any Christian, like them being aware, you know what I mean?

B: Maggie? I want you to weigh in

M: Oh my gosh, so this is again, I think this is why I took on supersessionism so late in my deconstruction because you have to be like, maybe the Bible isn’t perfect, maybe Christianity isn’t the only way, maybe I shouldn’t try to convert people to Christianity, maybe Christianity has been a real source of harm. So you have to hit six different huge points, and then you also have to deconstruct eternal conscious torment or the idea that everybody who’s not Christian will be tortured in hell for eternity

B: Which I can only imagine it seems like a really, really hard thing to believe about people who you love.

M: Oh 100%, for sure

T: Which makes it really complicated to be like, okay I can accept people living a different way because you genuinely don’t want them to suffer, that’s rough

M: I have, like, as a child would cry because I was like, what do you mean my friends who are also nine years old are going to hell, I don’t want that for people

T: Kind of a fucked-up thing to teach children

B: Religious trauma

(Laughter)

M: So, you have to hit all those points before you could get to supersessionism, and the point of conversion I think…I don’t even know. I recommend reading God is Not One, which is like a religious textbook that talks about how each religion is like its own mountain that some people might choose to climb and all the mountains look really different, but they’re also all mountains, but one mountain is not better than the other mountains. So I think that was helpful, and also what was really helpful for me was Paul talks about how basically God is not gonna, this is so supersessionist, but God is not gonna abandon Jewish people because they are God’s Jewish people

B: Yeah, I ran into that when I was looking stuff up about supersessionism and trying to be prepared, but there is literally stuff in Christian texts that are like “God still loves Jews” what the heck

T: Paul was onto something there, the bar is really low

M: He was onto something. So I think that was helpful to see first, and then be like “Okay, I’m gonna come back to this, this is not a super pressing issue”, I’m gonna deal with the idea of hell first

T: Which is a big one 

B: Really big

M: Really big one, also I’ve also had a hard time being like Christianity is so important to my life and has deeply enriched my life and the lives of people I love, and honestly saved my life, not to be a stereotypical Christian

B: That’s a completely reasonable thing to say

M: Jesus is probably one of my best friends, so I don’t know, so I think all of these things can be true at once and I hate being dialectical about it

(Laughter)

T: Dialectics, yesssss

M: So I also am like, it’s good to practice Christianity ethically, but also me as an individual is not responsible for every single problem and issue that Christianity has created. Like, I don’t need to solve Christianity’s racism single-handedly

T: That’s kind of also, your own specific struggle as a One

M: Okay leave me alone maybe

T: I just am saying maybe not everybody needs to learn that, it’s you being a one. Like I think some people do need to try and solve Christianity more

M: That’s true, we all have a responsibility to challenge that, but 

T: You do it too much, it’s a problem

M: I don’t need to single-handedly take on all of American Christianity by next week

B: You can only go so hard

T: But I feel like this podcast is a good start, you know what I mean? I’m being genuine

M: Also, I think the best thing that ever happened to my relationship with Jesus was realizing that hell, I was like “Ohh, what if I don’t need Jesus to be a one-way ticket out of hell? Why do I want to follow Jesus? Why is Christianity still important to me?”

T: I feel like belief in hell is a trap, it’s a thought hazard, you know about those?

B: A DBT thing?

T: It’s something where once you know about it, you’re in danger, and if you didn’t know about it before you wouldn’t be in danger, and I think hell is basically a thought hazard because it’s like that thing that I’m obsessed with! That I feel like I’ve talked about before. The one where—okay let me find the actual quote I literally have it in my phone somewhere. Okay, “an Inuit hunter asks the local missionary priest, ‘if I did not know about God and sin would I go to hell’, ‘no’ said the priest, ‘not if you did not know’, ‘then why’ asked the Inuit earnestly ‘did you tell me’”.

B: It’s a really fucked up, I think

T: It’s a thought hazard, you literally

B: What was the thing that you said before?

T: Thought crime? That’s not what I meant to say, that’s a different thing, thought hazard, yes. Like if you don’t know about it, it can’t hurt you

B: God will always forgive you for ignorance, that’s big! It does seem like kind of a bully move to tell someone about something only to make them

T: Yeah, you’re trapped once you know about it, which is a fucked up thing to do to your children, you know? When you’re a Christian raising your children and your like “let me tell you about hell” and now you’re gonna be trapped in this for the rest of your life and not gonna be able to escape. Or like it’s gonna be really hard, cause obviously you can, like Maggie.

M: Did I escape it though?

T: You’re trying, you’re doing something!

M: I do now have an anxiety disorder, so do with that information what you will (laughs)

T: I guess that’s what I mean, it’s really hard, you’re basically irreversibly changed once you hear that, so that’s cool.

B: Here’s a sticker for Maggie for getting through it

(laughter)

M: Thanks Bridget, so I think my summarizing thoughts are like, supersessionism is on the deconstruction list number eight

B: Number eight? It’s down the list

M: Not cause it’s not important but because to do any meaningful work, you have to go through a bigillion other things

B: Just like DBT

T: True!!

M: Wow

T: Almost like DBT is really relevant to every area of life

M: I agree, so if you are like, my fellow deconstructing people who are like “damn, the religion I was raised in was fucked up to some degree” if you’re like not ready to be like “hell isn’t real, the Bible lies, I was raised anti-Semitic, there are other ways besides Christianity” you can have a little bit of compassion on yourself because unlearning everything you have been taught

T: Is really hard

M: Turns out is hard

B: And that’s why supersessionism is so complicated because it’s very interconnected with a lot of other deeply rooted beliefs that it is more difficult to question than anti-Semitism, so the fact that you have to question all those other beliefs to be able to understand that you’re being anti-Semitic, it’s…

T: I also feel like it’s really easy to trick yourself into thinking that you’re not being anti-Semitic, like “you can like like, I don’t pity other religions, I don’t think they’re going to hell” and then deep down you really still do

B: That’s why supersessionism is subtle anti-Semitism, not really obvious anti-Semitism

T: Which just makes it way harder to deconstruct. I feel like as much shit as we talk about Christianity, we’re always gonna have the most compassion for people who are deconstructing and genuinely trying…there’s the most compassion ever for deconstructing people 

B: It’s so hard

T: And it’s not at all your fault that you were taught this and then now believe it, you know what I mean.

B: Whenever I would talk to gay Catholics at college I felt like nothing, just growing up Jewish is so incomparable because people don’t tell you that you’re wrong and horrible all the time for doing anything.

T: It sucks to be told that

M: I will say, my new favorite phrase is “It’s not my fault, but it is my responsibility”

T: Yeah, that’s a good one

M: To be like, hey it’s not my fault that I was raised anti-Semitic, but it is my responsibility to challenge that now

B: I love that because that’s a very accountability forward way of looking at life without—that has been removed from the self-hatred that a lot of people, and the guilt that a lot of people feel that actually will hinder progress

T: Which is great because Christianity loves to make you feel both guilty and self-righhteous

B: Yeah

M: And Jesus is so anti-shame and guilt, it’s almost insane

T: Which is so crazy because Christianity is so pro shame and guilt

B: It is wack

T: Almost as if…

M: Read the Beatitudes in the Message if you’re sad about Christianity because it cured me, honestly

B: Thanks for listening, this has been My Ex and My Future Wife, I’m Bridget

M: I’m Maggie

T: I’m Theo

B: Until next week, be gay and question God 

T: (singing) my ex and my future wife