MXMFW 12: Kosher Sex

Disclaimer: if you are related to anyone on this podcast, probably don't listen to this episode.

Episode Transcript available here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HshBi5BVWXD816iGXUdgIgBkbr8oytBX/view?usp=sharing

Jewish Virtual Library
Union for Traditional Judaism
My Jewish Learning
Jewish Women's Archive
Deuteronomy 24:5
Exodus 21:10
Eruvin 100b
Pesachim 72
Nedarim 20b
Carnal Israel
All of us being sex geniuses

Transcript

Theo (singing): In the beginning, God made three lesbians who liked to talk, and they loved each other, and they loved God, but they have a few questions, and they think you might have a few questions too about religion, gay stuff, and life, so come join Me, My Ex, and My Future Wife.

Theo: Hello and welcome to My Ex and My Future Wife, I’m Theo.

Bridget: I’m Bridget and I’m the ex

Maggie: I’m Maggie and I’m the future wife. (singing) Let’s talk about sex baby

(Laughter)

T: That’s a great intro, tank you Maggie

B: So this week, we’re gonna be talking about sex

M: Like I sang!

B: We’re going to be talking abouts sex, we’re gonna be focuysing on Jewish sex/Kosher sex, but obviously…

T: Cause we have cool laws

B: This is an interfaith show, though, so obviously we’re gonna be talking about Christian culture around sex and where it differs from Judaism, but if you wanna hear even more about that, you and go listen to our Purity Culture Episode because we cover a lot of Christian attitudes towards sex.

T: It’s basically all in there

M: Or find your local religiously traumatized ex-vangelical and they can tell you all about Christian sex

T: Or find ANY Christian and they will tell you more than you want to know

B: That’s fair. Disclaimer, in this episode we’re going to be talking about Jewish law and religious laws around sex. These are not our personal opinions about sex. We are just interested in discussing these laws and we do not…this is not meant to be prescriptive; we do not think anyone needs to be abiding by these

T: Like unless you want too, I guess

B: Unless you want to, which obviously is always an option, and also we are going to be discussing sex, sexual violence, all the messy things you can imagine would relate to sex, so just

T: Like messy in what way

B: You know, like bestiality?

T: Oh, okay. I just didn’t know what you meant by that

B: And adultery

T: Okay, okay

M: Incest?

B: Yeah

T: Probably

B: I’m not going to go in depth about incest, I don’t feel a need to, it’s not that controversial, it’s a pretty clear don’t do it. But just anything like that is probably going to be mentioned, so be prepared

M: So Jewish, Kosher Sex, tell us about it!

B: So obviously, there’s a lot of overlap in Torah stuff with sexual laws about sex…sexual laws.

M: I think all laws are sexual

B: Oh really interesting take!

T: I understand that you’re a one, I understand

B: I also think that you need to read some more Torah before you make that proclamation because so much of it is just about who you can and cannot sell your chickens too.

M: Rules are sexy

T: How the state of the berries on the myrtle branch…the state of the leaves where you get it from…what the intention is when you pick the berries. There’s a lot.

B: Maggie’s looking like they’re not changing their mind about rules being sexy

T: I don’t think we will

M: If anything, they’re even sexier now

B: Okay, I’m not going to go all the way back to Adam and Eve right now. Blah blah blah blah, Jews don’t believe in original sin

T: Which is sexy of us

B: What I am going to go back to is Noah’s Arc.

T: Okay yes!

B: And I’m going to say that one of big things with Jewish law around sex is that, wile there’s a lot of Jewish law around sex, and a lot of it is delineating between what is sexually immoral and what is sexually moral, and towing that line can be really important because one of things that I was reading about is how sexual immorality was a major contributing factor to God needed to flood the world (laughter) and start over

T: Okay, interesting. One of his most famous moments.

B: A really, really big moment for God

M: Top ten God moments

T: Top Ten God moments, when they flooded the world, killing everything 

B: So, God literally was like, humans are doing terribly 

T: Humans are having the worst sex that I’ve ever seen!

B: Super, duper sexually immoral, and that is one of the big reasons that I’m gonna send y’all this big, big flood, and have Noah build his little arc, and take a handful of people and a lot of animals on there

T: Lot of animals in the arc

B: And just start over. So, I was just wondering, Maggie, if you knew anything about that, if you were familiar about that at all

M: We were never taught the sex part of Noah’s Arc because we were mostly taught about Noah’s Arc as small children, so they were like “there are the giraffes and the elephants, they’re on the boat”

B: You sing that song about how they get on two by two. Anyways, God flood the Earth, does that stop people from being sexually immoral ever? Well, we have to wonder, what qualifies as sexual immorality

T: And I really have been wondering that

M: Having sex outside of heterosexual marriage

B: This is a really interesting point, and here’s something that is constantly both frustrating and delightful about Judaism, there’s no such thing as Jewish belief, there’s no singular Jewish belief. Jewish belief could mean anything.

T: It’s true

B: So, if we’re really just looking very, very historically at when is the best time…when people are supposed to be having sex according to the Torah, it is within the confines of heterosexual marriage. But, obviously modern Jewish moments—so the Reform movement, the conservative movement, the reconstructionist movement and some more progressive Orthodox movements—do not still believe that ethical sex only happens within the confines of heterosexual marriage. If you really are reading into why Jewish sex is supposed to be happening within the confines of marriage, it’s because sex is seen as the epitome of intimacy, and you are meant to be having sex pretty much only in ways that promote being intimate with your partner. So, sex should always be consented to by both parties, and sex should be joyful, and sex should be loving, and basically the core value of how sex should work if you’re looking at—in my opinion—the spirit of Jewish law, it’s just that sex should be a way of connecting with another person and being truly intimate with them. It’s meant to add depth to a relationship.

T: Nice

B: So, it’s a really big thing in Judaism that while procreation is a commandment and it is important and it is one of the purposes of sex, that procreation is not the only purpose of sex. It’s an important part of having intimate relationships and…I was reading, one of the things that I was reading was basically like “there is not really any precedent for celibacy in Judaism because Judaism wants everyone to be having sex”. It wants everybody to be happily married or partnered and having sexual satisfaction within those partnerships more than…Jewish law is not a super big fan of promiscuity, but Jewish Law as a whole very much indicates that people should be having sex and that it’s healthy, and that it is not for one singular purpose.

T: Which is pretty cool I think

B: Yeah, Maggie would you say that Christianity contrasts with that in any way

M: Uhh yeah, St Augustine literally said, if you have sex and the purpose is not procreation, straight to hell. Like paraphrasing, that’s essentially what he said

B: That’s different than Jewish sexual ethic (laugh)

M: Just a little bit

B: Do you think, drawing off of Genesis 1:28, be fruitful and multiply

M: I think partially, I also think Augustine was bad, so I’m really biased.

T: I think you’re probably right about that one.

M: Cause there’s like, the whole Song of Soloman exists in the Bible, you know? So, I feel like yeah maybe they did use “Be fruitful and multiply”, but I think that Augustine just had things about sex he had to figure out. 

T: Be fruitful, he said…

(Laughter)

M: You heard it here first, God commands us to be gay.

T: GAY PEOPLE!

(Laughter)

B: Does Christianity have a specific number of kids to fulfil the commandment of be fruitful and multiply? 

M: No, does Judaism?

B: Yeah! Fuck yeah!

T: Fucking of course we do!

M: Is it seven?

T: We have a number of berries on the myrtle branch bro

B: I’m pretty sure Halel came up with this one. It’s one son and one daughter. 

M: Very Leave it to Beaver

B: Very nuclar family, very gender binary, very much Tevye and Golde from Fiddler on the Roof could not make it happen (laughter)

T: They really couldn’t, they said, what if we had five daughters instead. Fie daughters instead I’m hearing?

M: Yeah, women’s rights

T: Tevye’s a feminist, so. 

B: Hodel’s a feminist, well Perchik is a feminist really

T: Perchik is a feminist 

B: In all of Fiddler on the Roof, Perchik is the feminist, he’s literally like “Oh, you have five daughters, do they wanna learn to read?” And Tevye is like “huh?”, and Perchik is like “I think they want to learn to read”.

T: Who’s the least feminist character in Fiddler on the Roof?

B: Lazar Wolf

T: That’s what I was thinking

(Laughter)

T: Okay, good I’m glad we’re in agreement. You know who else is a feminist

B: Who?

T: Fruma Sarah

B: Yeah.

(Laughter)

T: Okay glad we had this sidebar

B: Fruma Sarah as made up by Tevye in his own pretend dream

T: Is a feminist

B: I fucks with Fiddler on the Roof. Maggie, does Christianity consider that it is actually commanded in Exodus 21:10 that men need to…okay I just want to say again, I’m sorry this all about heterosexual marriage, I’m just reading the Torah

T: We are lesbians, we are not cis, we don’t agree with heterosexual marriage

B: Exodus 21:10 says that men are commanded to sexually satisfy their wives and that it’s a mitzvah to sexually satisfy your wife

T: How does Christianity feel about that?

B: Have you heard that?

M: I have not, do you know what I have heard?

T: What

M: Wives are vessels for their husbands

B: So consider this

T: What does that even mean?

M: It means…well Mark Driscol, everybody’s fave, called his wife his penis home, so that’s kind of what that means

T: WHAT

B: Okay, can’t lie that’s hilarious 

T: It’s really funny

B: YIKES!

M: It’s your wifely duty to 

T: To host the dick in you

B: Okay, not true, if we’re talking about Jewish law, men are obligated to sexually satisfy their wives, women are not obligated to sexually satisfy their husbands

M: For realizies?

B: That’s literally true. Men, I have in my notes, are responsible for fulfilling women’s sexual needs, not the other way around. If the man in the marriage wants to have the sex, the woman can be like “no”. But a man has to be able to be ready to sexually provide for a woman and he can’t shirk that duty.

T: that’s such a girl boss moment

M: Quick Q, is it kosher to fake an orgasm?

B: That’s a good question, I don’t know

T: If a “woman” fakes an orgasm with a man, it feels like she’s stopping him from committing—committing what the fuck

M: From fulfilling his duty

B: Fulfilling a mitzvah. I’d say based on everything that I’ve read about Jewish law about sex, it probably isn’t just because it’s dishonesty during an act that’s supposed to be completely intimate and honest, and that I think is not cool. I think that

T: Rough

B: It think that would probably be pretty frowned upon, so I would say faking an orgasm, not super Kosher based on my interpretations of Jewish Laws about intimacy.

T: That’s like good

B: But anyways, one of the passages that we draw men’s obligation to sexually satisfy their wives from is—well I already said Exodus 21:10—but it’s all about if a man takes another wife, he cannot ignore the sexual needs of his original wife, and he has to make it a priority that everyone’s sexual needs are being fulfilled. There’s also another one that says…another passage that says—this I think is from Deuteronomy 24:5—which is for a year after being married, the man can’t be sent to war or go anywhere he has to be away from his wife because that would prevent him from sexually satisfying her for the first year of marriage.

T: That’s like really cool

B: And that is really important for the first year of marriage, especially when your considering the context where men and women in ancient Judaism and according to really traditional Jewish law, aren’t allowed to touch prior to marriage. So, it was really important that they be able to really establish intimacy with each other for that first year, so the man can’t go away. And speaking of men not being able to go away, there are actually different…quite a few rules surrounding the frequency with which men must sexually pleasure their wives that differ based on career.

T: Yes I love this part, it’s great

B: I’m not gonna list all of the, but I think that it’s like every day 

T: It’s everyday for some of them

B: If you live in town, in the same house as your wife all the time. If you’re a traveling salesman or a sailor or something like that

T: Cause then it’s less cause you’re not home as much

B: It can be every couple weeks or every couple months, but you can’t go longer than that

M: So, you have to be lile “sorry homies, I have to go home”

B/T: I HAVE TO FUCK MY WIFE

M: God literally said women’s rights

T: God said women’s rights

B: God literally said care for and be gentle with your wife

T: Or whatever

B: Or don’t. I mean like emotionally gentle, but also marital rape and sexual coercion are forbidden as well

M: In purity culture it’s actually encouraged

B: God, marital rape in purity culture, oh it’s really bad 

M: That is so cool, so, wow

T: Is this blowing your mind Maggie?

M: This is blowing my mind?

B: Yeah Maggie, you might be interested to know that no marital rape actually comes from Proverbs 19:2

M: That’s fine

T: So just to be clear, that’s in y’alls book too

M: Why would we appropriate the cool parts of Judaism? So, where were these sex laws in my youth group

T: They’re like “we’ll do Passover, but we don’t want to not rape our wives, so

B: tricky

T: Very cool 

M: Damn, any other cool Kosher sex laws, I’m intrigued. Tell them more to me

B: I’m gonna get to the bad ones soon, but I was happy to start with these good ones. There’s not celibacy in Judaism, and Judaism is kind of anti-asceticism in general.

T: Which is so sexy

M: What does that mean, sorry/

T: Asceticism is when you deprive yourself of things that you want or need, or you actively harm yourself in order to be spiritually pure 

M: So, thanks for naming that trauma for me, now I have a cool vocab word to tell my therapist

T: It was a big thing that Siddhartha also opposed because a lot of people practicing Buddhism—well not Buddhism—but a lot of people practicing Hinduism and other kind of spirituality would practice asceticism in really extreme ways, and he did it for a while and then he was like “wait this sucks actually, I don’t think this is the way to do it guys”. 

M: Makes sense, forgive my ignorance, so I understand that fasting is a big part of celebrating Jewish religious traditions

B: But fasting is supposed to be joyful

M: Ohhh

B: Fasting in Judaism isn’t about depravation it’s about focus, which I think is similar in Buddhism, right?

T: Which in Christianity, fasting is about depravation, which is so

B: Fasting in Judaism isn’t about self-denial, it’s about I am focusing my mind fully on something else, so I’m not paying attention to my body. I’m really just hyper engaged in prayer

M: Whenever I’ve done Christian fasting, I’ve never been focused on God even one time, sorry to take over this podcast, very Christian of me

B: Go crazy, this is a collaboration

T: Maggie, I can’t believe you would speak over Jews, just kidding, you’re not. It’s actually always Jews speaking over Maggie on this podcast, we love to do it

B: Maggie, say what you’re saying

M: I think that’s all, we just really said, oh, Jewish people fast, what if we used to to harm our children and ourselves 

(Laughter)

T: I mean, you said it not me

B: Well anyways, speaking of harming children

M: What a great segue!

B: Here are some things you can do during sex, that will according to the Talmud, mess up your children if they are conceived during these sexual acts. I am going to preface this by saying, this is highly debated within the Talmud, and I think that’s it’s been generally agreed upon that these things actually aren’t bad by modern Jewish rabbis and even the Talmudic rabbis that were having these conversations didn’t agree that these things were bad, but I think it is a funny list

T: Okay I’m ready. Can I play never have I ever

B: I think some of them are good advice.

T: I have ten fingers up and I’m gonna see if I’ve done any of them

M: Play along in the comments below

T: Play along in the nonexistent comments, play along at home, tweet us to let us know how many fingers you put down. I don’t know what these are going to be, so it could be really bad stuff and I’ll put zero fingers down

B: There’s actually not really bad, but some of them are kind of bad

T: Okay let’s go

B: This is called, children of fear, there are nine types of children of fear 

T: Oaky so there’s nine things you can do wrong

B: But I’m not actually going to do all nine, just some of them aren’t funny. One is if you think that you’re having sex with someone else other than the person you’re having sex with

T: Okay I haven’t done that

B: That one’s bad. One that we’re not supposed to do is have sex in the aftermath of a fight.

(Laughter)

M: No make-up sex

B: I think if you’ve made up, that’s fine, but no fighting sex. No sex while under the influence

(Laughter)

B: No sex after you have decided to become divorced, but you aren’t divorced yet

(More laughter)

T: That’s really funny

M: This seems like a really weird call out post

B: No sex where the woman has demanded that the sex happen and the husband is a little bit like “meh” about it, which is coercive is what that’s saying

T: Which is good because men already can’t do that, so it’s good that is also true

M: That’s a good bonus law with the other Jewish things about sex that we’ve talked about

B: Some of them are also like rape and things that are very bad, and then there’s a couple more that I’m trying to find. I’m scrolling through the Nedarim, but I know that one is like if you have sex with someone while fantazing about someone else, which is, okay wait, I have to find

T: That’s really funny everyone has done that I think

B: There’s one but in the Talmud, which is like you’re not supposed to talk during sex

T: What??

B: And that’s a thing that comes up a good amount of times, don’t talk during sex, don’t laugh, don’t say anything, just be focused! You can’t look at anything else

T: You just have to look into each other’s eyes the whole time

B: You can’t look at any other people, so you have to make sure the windows are covered and stuff so you don’t see someone walking by on the street. Another one that I was not finding the Talmud, but I found in another random source, which I believe, it wasn’t an unreliable source, I just didn’t find it in a list. A lot of the Talmud is just lists of what you should and shouldn’t do just in conversation form, which is that you shouldn’t have barriers between you and your sexual partner. As in, you should be fully naked, and there shouldn’t be any clothes or sheets or anything in-between you

T: Oh my god like in DEBS when they have two sheets

B: Not Kosher!

(Laughter)

T: You can’t wear any clothes?

M: Fully stripped

T: What if they’re hot

B: The clothes?

M: Not Kosher

T: What about socks, because if you don’t wear socks you’re gay, so let’s parse that one.

B: I’m trying to find this one

T: I’m doing not well so far, I’ve put five fingers down

M: You‘re gonna have bad babies

T: Luckily, I’m not having babies

B: Your babies are going to be deformed, that’s what they say. 

T: I’m all good, I just won’t do any of these things

M: If anyone has ever accidentally spoken during sex then they are like (gasp), and then like stop

T: Okay we can’t have a child, we can’t conceive a child

B: The passage in the Talmud that’s like don’t talk during sex, don’t fantasies during sex, blah blah, it’s then immediately another rabbi says back to the other person saying that is like “that’s stupid, you can do whatever you want during sex”. Oh wait, one was that you can’t hit it from the back!

(Laughter)

T: That’s criminal

B: That was one, that was like, 

M: Missionary only

T: That’s fucked up I think, I’m gonna get in an argument about this

B: I think that’s too close to being animals 

(Laughter)

B: And it’s a lot of weird consequences, like I think that if you’re…I don’t remember which was which, but it was like your children will be born blind if you fantasies about other people, or your children will not be able to walk if you hit it from the back

(Laughter) 

T: That’s so quotable, Bridget

B: Don’t quote me on those specific ones being connected to those other specific ones

M: Your child will not be able to walk if you hit it from the back

B: Which is also ableist

T: All of these are ableist

B: saying that you can’t hit it from the back is ableist, if we’re being honest

T: To me

B: But then, literally another rabbi, makes this INSANE comparison, but you know, fair I guess, where he’s like “If I buy meat at the butcher, you don’t get to tell me if I have to salt it, or if I have to eat it roasted versus boiled, it’s my own meat, I can eat it how I want”

(Laughter)

B: And that’s his way of saying “she’s my wife, I can fucl her however works for me”

M: That’s between me and my wife and God

B: Stop being so goddamn perspective, and whatever works for me and my wife is how we’re gonna run things

M: That’s just how you salt your meat, you know? Whatever salts your meat.

B: Don’t tell me I can’t hit it from the back, don’t tell me that I can’t talk during sex

M: Whatever presses your panini

B: This is actually going to lead me into everyone’s favorite Talmudic sex anecdote, which is whenever you are reading a Jewish texts that’s talking about sex, Rav Kahn, famous voyeur Rav Kahn. Okay, so Rev Kahn was rabbinical student. Back in the olden days, and he was studying Torah and one day he snuck into his teacher’s house and hid under the bed to listen to him having sex with his wife, and he’s, under there and the observation that he makes is “wow, this guy is so enthusiastic, it’s like this is his first time having sex”. Then he gets discovered, and hhis rabbi is like “Rav Kahn, get out from under my bed, this is so inappropriate, leave, get out of my house”. And Rav Kahn goes “but this is Torah too, and I need to study it”. So this is a hilarious, everyone’s favorite anecdote

T: That’s really funny

B: So basically, Rav Kahn is like saying that his rabbi teacher, so clearly a very good rabbi, is talking and laughing with his wife during sex, which kind of is giving us, like we have a precedent that this is okay. Also, we have sex is Torah, sex is part of life, and it’s an important thing how to learn how to approach in a Jewish way. 

M: Yeah that makes sense

B: It’s also a silly story

M: It’s very fun, pre-porn era, you just had to go under your teacher’s bed

(laughter)

B: Oh my goodness. Another thing that I was going to say is that when we’ve been talking about sex, we’ve been talking about it in a very classical traditional sense of cis man, cis female, penis and vagina type sex, so I’m sure that you have both been sitting there just wondering and wondering about oral sex

T: I have, I’m so glad you brought it up actually

M: Cause I’ve been dying to talk about it

T: I’ve been dying to talk about oral sex!

B: Oral sex performed on a vagina, cunnilingus one might say

(Laughter)

M: I feel so giggly, I feel like I’m 12

T: I’m having a great time

B: Don’t you love when you go to a slumber party about—about?

T: About?

B: Don’t you love at a sleepover when all your friends dissect the Talmud together

(Laughter)

B: That is me and Maggie’s kind of slumber party

T: Yeah I would do this

M: I think we should, so oral sex? Tell us more.

B: Oral sex performed on a vagina is kind of a no

M: So lesbaphobic

T: Wow, DJ Khaled type beat 

B: And..oh my god

T: Please give me justification for that because I need to know it. Honestly, no hitting it from the back, no oral sex, I’m out, no more Judaism

(Laughter)

B: This is coming from the Union for Traditional Judaism, there’s this passage—oh my gosh this is where I had read all these lists before—children are born blind because the husband gazes at his wife’s genitalia. That’s something you can’t do during sex, look at your wife’s genitalia. Okay I was totally right about your children not being able to walk if you hit it from the back

T: I’m quitting Judaism because I can’t look at my wife’s dick in bed

B: You children are born speechless—mute I guess—if you kiss your wife’s genitalia. So that’s the idea 

T: That’s so fucked up

B: So basically, they’re like this is kind of a no if we’re referencing again those same passages in Nadarim. However, I think that this is also covered by the “this is my own meat, I’ll cook it how I want to” disagreement. It’s just kind of iffy, but again, today in progressive Jewish circles, aka the majority of Jewish circles—reform, reconstructionist, conservative, and progressive orthodox spaces—I think that it’s really not that much of an issue because as long as you’re deriving sexual pleasure probably anything that is consensual and between two parties who are able to consent, etc. is okay because you’re still doing the mitzvah of giving someone else sexual pleasure. That would be my loose interpretation of it. So, what we have if we are going to then talk about sucking dick, that will bring us

T: I would love to

B: That would bring us to Onanism. Maggie, do you know about onanism?

M: I don’t think so…

B: Really?

M: Tell me more!

B: So Onan was this guy, someone’s son, I don’t remember who, and he got in trouble for masturbating, and the reason that he got in trouble for masturbating was because of a phrase that I am sure you have heard of, which is that he was “spilling the seed”.

M: Oh, yeah, gotta keep it

B: So the idea is that you can’t just ejaculate for no purpose because that’s antithetical to the idea that procreation is important, and it’s wasteful.

(Laughter)

T: It’s wasteful

B: So, kind of how that shakes out in Jewish law is you can suck dick, but they can’t cum in your mouth

T: Or outside of

B: Or outside of your mouth!

M: Only in body.

T: Inside of pussy moments

B: Or just not at all

M: So split or swallow? Not even an argument

T: The answer is swallow with your pussy, always

(Laughter)

B: But then, a lot of rabbis talked about this, and they were like “you know, it’s probably not that bad actually, as long as it doesn’t happen too often”

T; these rabbis were like, I want my dick sucked, sooooo

M: We can have a little as a treat

B: So the Jewish legal stance on sucking dick is, it’s okay, just don’t do it everyday

T: Just watch out!

M: Special occasions

B: Just don’t get addicted!

(Laughter)

T: Addicted to sucking dick, honestly. 

B: That’s weirdly the less controversial form of oral sex in Jewish Law. 

M: Crazy, what other things

B: Anyways, we’re not even gonna get into masturbation in this episode, that’s a whole other thing

M: I think we should just do a while masturabation episode

T: Good

B: Maggie do you know Christianity’s teakes on oral sex? Is it like not for procreation so thumbs down, or what’s the thing?

M: It depends, some people are like missionary only to have a child, and if you have sex for sexual pleasure, dead. But other people are like, it’s your marriage, you’re married heterosexually and cisgendered married

B: Cisgenerdedly

T: Cisgender married, I’m cisgender married now

M: It’s your meat, do with it what you will

(Laughter)

B: I bought this myself! 

T: And I’ll fuck it

B: However, I want 

M: Quick thing that I remembered about oral sex, some Christians are like you can have oral sex before you’re married cause it’s not real sex

T: Loopholes

B: Like soaking

T:  Like anal

M: I didn’t grow up with that, so I kind of forgot about it

T: Hilarious

B: That makes sense, do you want to hear something funny. About reading sex in Jewish law, which is that in Ancient Hebrew there is not a word for sex 

M: What did they say?

B: There’s just a bunch of weird euphemisms 

T: Like washing your feet

B: Yeah exactly, and like “lying with” someone

T: Make sure she cums when you’re washing her feet

B: It’s really funny because we just didn’t come up with the word sex I guess until later, to be with, to have 

M: And to hold

B: And to fuck, yeah.

T: To have your meat and fuck it too

B: I want to talk about Niddah, do you guys know about Niddah?

T: I know her

B: You know her, what do you know about her

T: I don’t remember, I just know the word 

B: Maggie do you know anything about her?

M: No, let’s learn, shall we?

B: Sorry my arm is so itchy, so basically Judaism has a lot of laws about ritual purity and a lot of these laws about ritual purity relate to sex, and so if you actually get down to it, you can really only have sex half of the time, if you’re having sex that involves someone who menstruates because during the period of menstruation you are considered ritually unclean—which you know, blah blah blah—and then once you have gotten through. The period of menstruation you have to wait a week and you’re going to the mikveh that whole in order to be sexually pure again, also you’re supposed to got to the mikveh after sex, did you know that?

T: Walk of shame to the mikveh

B: Because sex can also make you ritually unclean

M: If there’s an emission of semen, he’s unclean until evening.

B: If you’re following all of the Niddah rules and you are not having sex while you’re ritually unclean, your only gonna be having sex for about half of the month every month. Complicated question that I have that I don’t have the answer to is, what if you don’t get your period at all

T: I think then you’re good

M: That’s what the Orthodox Jewish people that I watch on Tiktok say

B: They say that if you don’t get your period at all you never have to go to the mikveh and you can have sex all the time? 

M: Basially, I think

B: Okay, good to know, if you want to be having more sex get an IUD

M: Quick Q, so God says you have to have sex with your wife everyday

B: But not if she’s ritually unclean

M: Okay cool, gotta double check

B: On all qualifying days. That was a good question.

T: At participating stores

B: Sex outside of marriage is a whole confusing thing, there’s not actually really rules against premarital sex, there’s just sort of the cultural ideal that you are supposed to be a virgin when you get married, and there’s also the idea that if a man has sex with a virgin and they’re not married, now they have to get married, and he has to pay her dad money and be like “apologies for de-virgining you daughter” 

M: My bad

B: There’s also a thing about with if two women are having sex with each other but they’re married, it can be grounds for the man to divorce a woman without her consent. Because usually both parties have to consent to a divorce.

T: So, if two women are having sex and they’re both married to men

B: Then the men can be like, I’m, leaving and you don’t get to make me stay anymore 

T” What if two men are having sex

B: I guess here’s now I’m going to talk about a little bit more current Jewish views on sexual ethic, which are just, I think everyone is free to follow the more perspective Jewish legal definitions of moral sex if they want to, but I know that the Reform and Conservative movements and reconstructionist—and again some progressive orthodox sects as well—just don’t really have as strong a feelings about the ways that people should and shouldn’t be having sex anymore, as long as it’s safe and between two consenting adults, there’s not so much controversy about can two men or two women or two people of unknown sets of genitalia have sex with each other and have it be okay, because there’s just pretty much you can have sex and it’s okay in Judaism. It’s encouraged and…Judaism basically is like “please have sex, just be nice about it”, and again I think that a lot of larger Jewish movements would still say that sex is an important way of promoting intimacy and you should treat it as such and sex is something that should be joyful for both parties. Those are pretty much my closing thoughts about it, which is just if you want to be having really specific…adhering very stringently to Biblical Law kind of sex, it’s also not that hard, and if you want to infuse your sexual experience with Jewish values, then try to have sex in ways that promote interpersonal intimacy, don’t have sex while drunk and make sure that everybody’s having a good time, and also make sure that everyone is having an orgasm, because that’s what they mean when they say “pleasure your wife”, that’s what they mean. Does anyone have any comments or questions? I’m trying to decide if I have any comments or questions

M: If we have a Patreon special

T: Where we have a Kosher threesome

M: Wat would we have to do to make it Kosher

B: Okay, here’s the thing already, right out the gate, I’m not sure how Kosher having a three some is, I know I should have dug into this more, I know Theo you’re disappointed in my for not finding out more

M: We’ll just do a polyamory episode

T: We gotta

B: I think it would be pretty iffy to be having a threesome because of the amount that sex is…it’s purpose is to be promoting intimacy between two people

T: What about between three people?

B: I don’t know

M: What if we did a schedule, so it was like each of us

B: If we took turns sure, totally fine

T: I think we need to talk about polyamory

B: Well that’s just a whole other thing because even in situations where a man takes another wife and then has two wives, he has to make sure that their sexual needs are both being met but separately

T: seperartly?

B: So, I would say, that’s already our first strike against if we wanted to have a Kosher Threesome, it’s a threesome and by nature, I’m uncertain about how Kosher that really is

T: And that’s fucked up

B: Let’s say we can find some kind of textual justification for that, we can say a Rachel and Bilhah, we can say that’s sort of you could claim textual precedent for a fucked up form of threesome

T: Yeah, I wouldn’t call that a threesome

B: Well, there are three people there participating in the sex

T: Are they participating

?B: In some manor for sure

T: I would call it maybe voyeurism?

B: But they’re all touching 

T: I’ve got a big vocabulary for this topic

B: Okay, let’s say fine, then actually you tell me, what do you think would make it Kosher Maggie?

M: From my knowledge? 

B: Let’s see what we’ve learned today?

M: We all need to orgasm

B: And…

M: Build relationships with each other, and be consenting 

B: No one can be on their period

T: And you can’t look at anybody else

B: Then we have to be the only ones there

T: And you can’t be hitting it from the back

B: And we can’t talk

T: And no oral sex with vagina, which no I think it would be hard

B: If we’re doing realistic, progressive Jewish Kosher sex

T: Wait what’s progressive

B: Just you know, socially progressive

M: So consent, relationship

T: Consent and orgasm and that’s it

B: And I would say emotional intimacy probably. I don’t think that those are bad. We all have to be sober. I don’t think these are bad values to have

M: That’s a pretty cool view of sex

T: Yeah, I like Jews for that

B: I think it’s mostly pretty good stuff, and sometimes questionable but hilarious

M: But so funny

B: That’s my take. Theo, do you have any comments or questions 

T: I wish I did better on the following the rules of Kosher Sex, I do pretty bad

B: Well, you can do better

T: I don’t want to

B: Well then you don’t wish

T: Okay I don’t wish. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of My Ex and My Future Wife, if you want to see more of us I guess, you can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Tiktok @mxmfwpod. We’ve actually started posting on Tiktok which is cool of us I think. If you have any questions, comments, topic suggestions, love letters to send to me, you can email us at mxmfwpodcast@gmail.com. Tweet how many funny little sex laws you broke because I am feeling alone. Tweet at us @mxmfwpod, I think it’s funny

M: And comment down below (Laughs), your favorite value in Kosher sex

B: That’s a nice one, please comment down below!

T: You can tweet that one at us too

M: Or comment down below

B: Or email or DM us on Instagram

M: Just email us a blank email that says “consent” in the subject line, and we’ll know what you mean.

B: Or you can take one of our Instagram posts and put it in your story and then say…like type over it “intimacy” I don’t know

T: You can quote our tweets and do it

B: You can quweet!

T: That’s not what it’s called, there’s no way that’s what it’s called. Go wild on the internet with us

B: Go crazy on the internet.

T: Thanks again for listening, I’m Theo

B: I’m Bridget

M: I’m Maggie

T: We’ll see you next week, and until then be gay and question god

B: And I’m sorry I didn’t talk about fingering

Theo (singing): My Ex and My Future Wife